Question about the value of Creeds?
“I would like you, if you have time, to speak to the
use and value of Creeds primarily the Apostles' and Nicene.
I find that I stumble over the apparent meanings and intentions of the words used. I find that when I pray these Creeds I mean and intend something different.
I have discovered, after serving the institutional church for 35 yrs. That I
experience truer "worship" than in a large church setting.” --from a member of the Celtic Christian church, to which I belong.
Answer attempted. This is a heavy question, loaded with the possibility of “heresy,”
so I must tread softly and lightly. I need to answer this is several parts.
Part 1. Let me begin with a true story.
Two associates, both of whom I had shared a number of discussions, each went home from Sunday Eucharist and committed suicide that same evening. . Both were professionals, lawyers, fine reputations (one more a statesman than a politician in Kentucky, active for many years on state level) both alcoholics. I had lost recent contact with each and had not spoken with either for some time. One was Episcopal and one Catholic. These events happened within the past year.
Consider that we can go to weekly Mass, recite the creeds, pray, sing, and hear preaching and receive the Eucharist, without ever having to hear or listen to the pain, loneliness or suffering of a single human being, even one sitting beside me. Is that possibly a pseudo-intimacy with this mystery we call God. Can we really “go” to God without hearing the pain of our brothers and sisters, and presume to do so where such listening is ritually excluded? (In many services an “Amen” out of place will receive stares) Does that church service place the importance of “spiritual connection” on recitation, and receiving concepts and symbols to the exclusion of the authentic humanity of the gathering? We are supposedly blessed and redeemed by the service without ever needing to be vulnerable? To presume that we can “Go to God” without listening to our neighbor was condemned by the prophets and implicitly by the parables of Jesus, see Good Samaritan, and Judgment scene in Matthew 25: 36 ff.
Now contrast that service with the gathering of our Spiritual Growth Network of Kentucky, now soon to begin our 17th year. We begin with some drumming to indicate that we are in a different holy place and calling the Spirit, then quiet meditation for 20 minutes, then personal sharing, each with a possible turn without any response, then if time is left, usually only a few minutes, we react to themes that have emerged. Each is invited to share their own spiritual journey for the precious week, but with no pressure to do so. The sharing begins with the volunteer leader for the day, choosing a short passage for Mindfulness and Inspiration, from a collection.
Which of these is a more intimate communion with an Incarnational Christ, Emmanuel, already here amongst us? Which requires more risk and vulnerability? Which requires more active faith accepting the uniqueness of each journey in the diversity of stories told? Which of the two settings is a greater incentive for loving and stretching our loving? Which is more authentic as well as also creating genuine community? Which is more “saving,” and in the spirit of Jesus, who told us when we pray, go to a closet and pray in private?
I offer that neither of these two good men would have committed suicide if they had been regularly attending the second kind of service, where personal sharing and listening to the faith journey and pain of others is a key part of the ritual. (P.S. we do not propose our SGN meetings as in competition with any other faith commitment, so we hold our regular weekly meetings at 5 p.m. on Sunday afternoons)
Consider that a Christian of most denominations over a lifetime can go to many thousands of worship services and never be invited or required to listen or hear the pain, loneliness or discouragement of a single person sitting next to them. Life long attendance, and be encouraged to believe that such worship is in itself, by itself, pleasing to God, and possibly sufficient. Most members of any religious jurisdiction are nominal, so focus is on membership, money and maintaining the buildings. Is this what Jesus was about? If we are meant to become lovers, (see my catechism draft posted yesterday) does the typical worship service inspire and lead us to do so?
Part 2, to be continued. How saving is the recitation of the creeds today? Historical perspective. Do these truths speak to our children? Can we appreciate truth without beauty? (See O’Donohue, tapes and book on Beauty)
Paschal in Lexington.
P.S. I write regularly on the Net, on a variety of topics, our Spiritual Growth Network, Celtic Spirituality, Love, Spirit, Poetry, Fundamentalism, Human Shadow, various ministries, etc.
www.paschalbaute.com/writing
use and value of Creeds primarily the Apostles' and Nicene.
I find that I stumble over the apparent meanings and intentions of the words used. I find that when I pray these Creeds I mean and intend something different.
I have discovered, after serving the institutional church for 35 yrs. That I
experience truer "worship" than in a large church setting.” --from a member of the Celtic Christian church, to which I belong.
Answer attempted. This is a heavy question, loaded with the possibility of “heresy,”
so I must tread softly and lightly. I need to answer this is several parts.
Part 1. Let me begin with a true story.
Two associates, both of whom I had shared a number of discussions, each went home from Sunday Eucharist and committed suicide that same evening. . Both were professionals, lawyers, fine reputations (one more a statesman than a politician in Kentucky, active for many years on state level) both alcoholics. I had lost recent contact with each and had not spoken with either for some time. One was Episcopal and one Catholic. These events happened within the past year.
Consider that we can go to weekly Mass, recite the creeds, pray, sing, and hear preaching and receive the Eucharist, without ever having to hear or listen to the pain, loneliness or suffering of a single human being, even one sitting beside me. Is that possibly a pseudo-intimacy with this mystery we call God. Can we really “go” to God without hearing the pain of our brothers and sisters, and presume to do so where such listening is ritually excluded? (In many services an “Amen” out of place will receive stares) Does that church service place the importance of “spiritual connection” on recitation, and receiving concepts and symbols to the exclusion of the authentic humanity of the gathering? We are supposedly blessed and redeemed by the service without ever needing to be vulnerable? To presume that we can “Go to God” without listening to our neighbor was condemned by the prophets and implicitly by the parables of Jesus, see Good Samaritan, and Judgment scene in Matthew 25: 36 ff.
Now contrast that service with the gathering of our Spiritual Growth Network of Kentucky, now soon to begin our 17th year. We begin with some drumming to indicate that we are in a different holy place and calling the Spirit, then quiet meditation for 20 minutes, then personal sharing, each with a possible turn without any response, then if time is left, usually only a few minutes, we react to themes that have emerged. Each is invited to share their own spiritual journey for the precious week, but with no pressure to do so. The sharing begins with the volunteer leader for the day, choosing a short passage for Mindfulness and Inspiration, from a collection.
Which of these is a more intimate communion with an Incarnational Christ, Emmanuel, already here amongst us? Which requires more risk and vulnerability? Which requires more active faith accepting the uniqueness of each journey in the diversity of stories told? Which of the two settings is a greater incentive for loving and stretching our loving? Which is more authentic as well as also creating genuine community? Which is more “saving,” and in the spirit of Jesus, who told us when we pray, go to a closet and pray in private?
I offer that neither of these two good men would have committed suicide if they had been regularly attending the second kind of service, where personal sharing and listening to the faith journey and pain of others is a key part of the ritual. (P.S. we do not propose our SGN meetings as in competition with any other faith commitment, so we hold our regular weekly meetings at 5 p.m. on Sunday afternoons)
Consider that a Christian of most denominations over a lifetime can go to many thousands of worship services and never be invited or required to listen or hear the pain, loneliness or discouragement of a single person sitting next to them. Life long attendance, and be encouraged to believe that such worship is in itself, by itself, pleasing to God, and possibly sufficient. Most members of any religious jurisdiction are nominal, so focus is on membership, money and maintaining the buildings. Is this what Jesus was about? If we are meant to become lovers, (see my catechism draft posted yesterday) does the typical worship service inspire and lead us to do so?
Part 2, to be continued. How saving is the recitation of the creeds today? Historical perspective. Do these truths speak to our children? Can we appreciate truth without beauty? (See O’Donohue, tapes and book on Beauty)
Paschal in Lexington.
P.S. I write regularly on the Net, on a variety of topics, our Spiritual Growth Network, Celtic Spirituality, Love, Spirit, Poetry, Fundamentalism, Human Shadow, various ministries, etc.
www.paschalbaute.com/writing
posted by Paschal Baute at
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